Monday 2 August 2010

Second Noble Truth (Interactive): why does life suck sometimes?

The Four Noble Truths form the basis of Buddha's philosophy. The purpose is purely ethical, grounded in subjective experience, so instead of studying the nature of life and reality objectively (in terms of scientific laws, random phenomena, natural selection etc.), we study our experience.

The First Noble Truth (discussed earlier here) is about understanding imperfection and suffering. The Second Noble Truth asks us to look into the causes of imperfection and suffering… So let us explore the roots of suffering. I've included my answers, and am continuing to investigate... The hope is that we can arrive at our own understanding independently of our knowledge of what the Second Noble Truth says and then compare and drill deeper. 

1. What makes you mad?
What makes me mad is human stupidity and lack of consideration for the lives of others. Thoughtless selfishness I can forgive because we all need to become more mindful, learn from our mistakes and do our best not to repeat them, but at least the intention must be there to be acting for the best. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but I’ve always believed that every road is. Ok, so we need to learn to be more mindful, but also forgive ourselves and others when we err. What makes me mad though is the intentional setting up of “us and them” which is a betrayal of the belief in equality, often motivated by power and greed, and accompanied by the restrictions of people’s freedoms and the treatment of individuals as statistics to be labelled and quantified and their approval maximized. Yes, what makes me mad is the betrayal of the three cornerstones of the democratic ideal, of equality, freedom and compassion, and of those who sow seeds of fear and hate that contribute to their degradation.

2. What makes you sad?
What makes me sad is that through the prolonged exposure of things that make us mad, we have developed a tolerance for them, almost become immune. This would make me mad also if it weren’t for the fact that I see it in myself and I find it completely understandable. What makes me sad is how children always have such high ideals and when they become adults they betray those ideals. What makes me sad is the powerlessness of the individual in the face of cruel reality, the short-sightedness of collective humanity, the inevitability of death and the loss of that which we hold dear.

3. What makes you frustrated?
What makes me frustrated is lack of “flow”. When life flows, what does that word “frustration” mean? It doesn’t exist! What obstructs the flow? It is difficulty, tiredness, uncertainty, confusion, helplessness, shame, distraction. And what keeps the river of life flowing over and around these obstacles of frustration with harmonious music. It is calm, energy, wisdom, understanding, power, love, intent. With greater mindfulness, perhaps we can catch the frustration before it arises. With less mindfulness, perhaps we can catch it after it arises. But if we do not catch it, then in time it sets and becomes a tributary of the river of life itself. I don’t even know why I’m frustrated this very instant, but I know that I am! It is my frustration of not understanding the Second Noble Truth, wanting to understand it better, that has driven me to write this blog. So perhaps frustration serves a purpose after all… 

4. What is your response to frustration?
Avoidance! Escape into thinking about something else without frustration, listening to music, reading, sleep, in the hope that the mind can rest, and return to find the state of flow that was lost. Sometimes this can work. Resting too long, the frustration can be forgotten, but it hasn’t necessarily gone away. Sooner rather than later, it must be actively addressed or it will become like a silent sadness never spoken or a gnawing pain whose cause of suffering to our life we fail to even recognize.

5. What is bothering you that you do not want to talk about?
I don’t want to talk about it! For sure there are plenty of things, but what is the fundamental issue at the core, not something external, but something which lies within, something perhaps deeply buried about which everything revolves? What is the source of your shame and your pain? What do you not want to talk about? Do you even have a clue? Perhaps this is something to meditate on, in stillness find the answer and contemplate how to address it. It would sure be useful to know…

6. What should the next question be?


I hand the blog over to you! You can answer any way you like, but let it be an expression of "desire"... oops, did I spill the beans there? I want it to come from you!

49 comments:

  1. Very candid and thoughtful answers, Okei...

    What makes me mad? leveling or resentful behavior.....

    What makes me sad? nothing... all is fleeting

    What makes me frustrated? nothing,.. everything is as it is

    What is your response to frustration? none

    What is bothering me that I don't want to talk about? nothing...withholding is never productive

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  2. What makes me angry.: Somebody trying to pickup on my woman.......
    What makes me sad is loss of a love one. Sometimes just saying goodnight and/or bye to someone I like to talk to.....
    What makes me frustrated is not remembering where I put my keys.
    Calm down and retrace my steps

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  3. Okei, I love the way you have delved into these questions. Now you want me to answer any way I like? Hmmm. Here goes:

    What makes me mad? Well, considering that getting mad is a waste of time, I suppose wasting time would make me mad, so I do not get mad anymore. I try to stay balanced and centered.

    What makes me sad? Same as above. Now I will get very emotional and teary about a lot of things, but that does not mean I am sad--that just means I feel something deeply and spiritually as an experience that brings forth inner waters. (I refuse to call it crying, dammit! :) That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

    What makes me frustrated? When people cannot see the balanced solution to things. More like what you described in what makes you mad...when they pit one side against another, or refuse to act responsibly, or avoid involvement. My level of frustration is different than most. I do not get all tangled up in it...it motivates me into the next phase:

    What is my response to frustration? That would be to work out the problem, try to think of a solution, act on resolving, offer suggestions...basically USE the energy created by being stymied and not just let it sit there as a knotted ball...but to unravel it into something useful or sensible.

    What is bothering me that I do not want to talk about? I am not really bothered...but there is an endless number of subjects I could be addressing...any number of actions I could be doing but I am not. If I did them all, I would probably go crazy. So instead, here I am typing this reply. Aren't you glad you asked? :)

    What should the next question be? Honestly, I was intrigued by the title of your post, "Why does life suck?" My life does not suck (anymore) because I do not let it. Plain as that. If that is something I can do, then others can do it too. The perspective we give to our life is important. [Great post, Okei!!] Blessings!

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  4. Kathy -- What makes me mad is the same thing that makes you mad -- stupidity, only it's the stupidity that allows people to throw trash out their car window, to smoke, take drugs, drink too much, beat their kids and their wives, cheat, steal, lie and wage wars.

    What makes me sad is the same thing that makes me mad.

    What makes me frustrated is that I can't control other people and events. If I could all stupidity would stop.

    My response to my frustration is to turn a blind eye to the stupid things people do.

    I can't think of a thing that's bothering me that I don't want to talk about. Talking about things that bother me is what I do.

    Another question might be, "What makes you feel satisfied?"

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  5. Good ones, Amala - I really like your last question: "What makes you feel satisfied." I don't think a lot of people think very hard about that one. They might know what makes them happy, but satisfied...? I think even I shall have to ponder that one. :) Blessings!

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  6. Amala, that is a great question!!" What makes you feel satisfied" Blessings Hector

    Oh Kathy a brilliant response!!

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  7. 1. What makes you mad?

    Do you really need to ask? heh heh

    2. What makes you sad?
    Human suffering. Suffering of other sentient beings. Death.

    2. What makes you sad?
    Computers that don't cooperate. Tech support geeks in India who ask the same question five times before answering an absurdly simple question.

    4. What is your response to frustration?
    Prayer and meditation.

    5. What is bothering you that you do not want to talk about?
    None of your business.

    6. What should the next question be?
    I don't know.

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  8. 1. What makes you mad? Getting mad. I hate to get mad. The madder I get the madder I get at the fact that I'm getting mad. Except of course when getting mad is justified, and necessary. Then getting mad is healthy, even beneficial.

    2. What makes you sad? 1) Loss. The things you whished you'd said, or done, after you lose someone dear. I don't make that mistake anymore though. And to those of you who haven't experienced that kind of loss yet, learn from those of us who have. 2) Abandoned children. Especially those children who are surrounded by family yet you can see the fact that they've been abandoned in their eyes.

    3. What makes you frustrated? Doing my taxes.

    4. What is your response to frustration? Hiring someone to do my taxes for me.

    5. What is bothering you that you do not want to talk about? I'm pretty talkative.

    6. What should the next question be? How come I'm not as creative as you?

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  9. Hello dear Jamintoo,

    A fantastic Post here. Well done, every body wants to participate, and read each other's answers, and learn from it. It is REAL !

    Whatever "learning from it" is, by the way ! Smile.

    Ok;

    - What makes you mad ? Narrowness in thinking. Life is so much larger, broader, uplifting, and deeper than what is usually conceived.

    - What makes me angry ? Details ! Lack of self control in myself or others. I am a Perfectionist, I am afraid. And so exacting.

    - What makes me sad ? Pain and suffering, of course, in any way, shape or form. I understand "suffering" intellectually, but not emotionally. Also, a lot of pain occurs from being thoughtless vis-a-vis oneself or others or Nature. It is REALLY WORTH IT paying more attention, and thinking twice before taking action, or making decision, or speaking one's mind.

    - What is your response to frustration ? I get Hot Flashes LOL ! Oh and I get Psychosomatic Symptoms as well. Normal : I am an aging woman. Smile. Oh ... and beside that I shout ! But it does not last long, OUF ! (although it helps immensely).

    - What is bothering me, that I'd rather not talk about ? My future ... my future is old age, pain, and death. And perhaps even poverty. Not funny. Oh ... and gaining weight. I dislike the fact that it is happening to me.

    Next,

    What about asking these questions :

    - What makes you smile ?

    - What makes you cheerful ?

    - What makes you joyful and happy ?

    - What is your response to perfect Synchronicity ?

    - What is so enchanting you that you'd love to talk about ?

    - What is the latest Answer that was given to you by the Universe ?

    Take care.

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  10. - What makes you smile ?

    - What makes you cheerful ?

    - What makes you joyful and happy ?

    - What is your response to perfect Synchronicity ?

    - What is so enchanting you that you'd love to talk about ?

    - What is the latest Answer that was given to you by the Universe ?


    What makes me smile is a baby's laugh, a puppy's cute antics, and flowers on my birthday.

    What makes me cheerful is a bright sunny day that isn't too hot and isn't too cold.

    What makes me joyful and happy is a visit from my daughter and finding money on the sidewalk.

    I'm not sure what "perfect Synchronicity" is.

    I'm also not sure what I'd consider to be "enchanting" or that I'd want to talk about it. Unless we're talking about Harry Potter's world and what I'd do if I had magical powers.

    The Universe and I don't communicate much and when we do I'm not crazy about its answers. For instance, I'm not crazy about the necessity of other creatures to prey on each other for survival. Why, for instance, do tapeworms, and head lice, and leeches have to be such a misery to their hosts?

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  11. What makes me smile: muscles in my face [many things make me smile--like when people "get it"]
    What makes me cheerful: interaction.
    What makes me joyful and happy: my family
    What is my response to perfect Synchronicity: "Thank you, God!"
    What is so enchanting that I would love to talk about: [too many to mention, so I go with the flow]
    What is the latest Answer given to me by the Universe: "Move your butt, you only have Now."

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  12. Carrie (aspara121)3 December 2016 at 14:35

    Great topic, Okei! I will give you a condensed answer for now, but might return later when I have more time.

    1. What makes me mad? Cruelty, abuse, intolerance, indifference to the suffering of others, complacency, hypocrisy.

    2. What makes me sad? Human/animal suffering, loss of loved ones, separation from loved ones, all forms of abuse, all forms of intolerance, death

    3. What makes me frustrated? Human indifference to suffering. Bureaucratic paperwork. Repetitious chores. Daily living aggravations. The "system" that prevents humane solutions to war, poverty and other social injustices.

    4. What is your response to frustration? Deep breathing/ meditation. Taking a walk and enjoying nature. Playing with my cat (she calms me down and comforts me). Yoga exercises. Gardening. Listening to music.

    5. What is bothering you? Why doesn't anyone know what happens to us after we die?

    6. What should the next question be? Catherine has already posted some very interesting questions. I'll try to get around to answering her questions before asking my next question. :)

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  13. 1. What makes me mad? The stupid insensitive ,selfish and cruel attitude and behaviours by people towards animals. And what makes me go beyond mad to crazy is vivisection, bull fights,dog fights, cock fights and all other such brutalities This includes the truck that use to pass me on the highway every Friday morning on its way to the abattoir, with its name "Last Ride Transport" painted on its door.

    2. What makes me sad? All of the above,as well as to see caged or tied up animals

    3. What makes me frustrated? The slow reaction by governments to legislate again these cruelties and the very, very very slow progress towards the gaining of animal rights.

    4. What is your response to frustration? I get involved and put my money and a good part of my free time where my mouth is. I also take every opportunity to spread the word, even to the point of answering this post.

    5. What is bothering you that you don't want to talk about?
    I don't talk about private things ,and on the few occasions that I do, I usually share my thoughts with cats an then I am certain it will go no further. :-)

    6. What should the next question be?
    A personal one: Why am I aways being accused of having a one track mind? LOL

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  14. Yuppee !

    Some of you are taking on my Questions too.

    So let me have a try :

    - What makes you smile ? Irony and Comical situations. Also anything that is cute, sweet, innocent, and caught up "in the action". Smile.

    - What makes you cheerful ? Good health, good food, a splendid surrounding, either in Nature or in Town. Peace and Calm. Simple pleasures. Contentment. Also people who do well. And when good things happen to people out of the Blue.

    - What is your response to perfect Synchronicity ? When perfect Synchronicity takes place, I believe in Life again and that "All Is Well" for myself and others. It reposes my Heart.

    - What is so enchanting you that you'd love to talk about ? Magic and Miracles, the simple Miracles in life. The sheer Beauty and Passion of Life and my profound respect for it. Also, the Future, as it is going to be SO different and awesome.

    - What is the latest Answer that was given to you by the Universe ? That Hector loves me, ... and this it is an occurrence that is so puzzling that even at my age, I am willing to learn again. Hector knows a Mystery and he is ready to reveal it to me. This is my latest, yes.

    Take care.

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  15. Amala said: I'm not sure what "perfect Synchronicity" is.

    I'm also not sure what I'd consider to be "enchanting" or that I'd want to talk about it. Unless we're talking about Harry Potter's world and what I'd do if I had magical powers.

    The Universe and I don't communicate much and when we do I'm not crazy about its answers. For instance, I'm not crazy about the necessity of other creatures to prey on each other for survival. Why, for instance, do tapeworms, and head lice, and leeches have to be such a misery to their hosts?


    Yes, dear Amala, the Universe and how Nature works for survival, is not always funny or pleasant to say the least.

    For instance, today, the little female Squirrel that has decided to make her Home on the top of my roof, has eaten my beautiful big red Strawberries that I enjoyed cultivating.
    Well, I am not starving, and she is an Animal. And a smart one at that.
    She looked at me, this afternoon. She was laying down on the stone, as if having a rest.
    She really looked at ME. As if taking interest. It was a strange thing.
    She very much likes my Radishes too ! Ah ah ah
    And she is not damaging the Flowers. Ouf !

    Anyway.

    Synchronicity. It is when things happen out of the Blue, which a spectacular connection and a striking aspect of concordance.

    About Harry Potter and whatever is enchanting, ... you are spot on !

    Take care, dear Amala.

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  16. What makes me smile. When I see a couple holding hand, when a mother is playing with her child, when I hear a good musician playing, the action of greeting someone either in person or internet.

    What makes me cheerful when I talk to my Fiancee, when I act like a space cadet with my sweetheart, my Fridays, eating a good dinner, seeing my Son, laughing with somebody, the anticipation of a good event.

    What gives me joy? Helping other feel better, experiencing the expression of unconditional love. Seeing and feeling the splendor and magnificence of another human being, when I compose music, appreciating the beauty of nature.

    Regarding Synchronicity, accepting "The Design" the wonderful outcome of life. I appreciate Carl Jung. Catherine, thank you Blessing... Hector

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  17. Thank you all for taking up the challenge and I'm really enjoying reading the thread. I hope to join in and comment properly when I can get to a computer, but for now I'm back on the mobile.

    I'm sorry if the subject appears negative. The way Buddha frames the Noble Truths, in terms of suffering being a fact of life does seem negative. I don't think life sucks! But the question is supposed to challenge, to make us really winge, lol... What is it that might be obstructing the peaceful mind? Can we ignore it and just pretend everything is fine, impose our dream of reality and that dream will manifest? I wonder, but Buddha seems to be asking us to accept its existence and examine its cause.

    I'm still thinking myself...and also what we can learn from our answers.

    What makes you smile and what makes you satisfied are great questions, and perhaps one answer to the fifth question would be not knowing or feeling lacking in that which makes us truly satisfied...

    Good luck everyone in finding out the answers for yourself, and kudos for sharing so much.

    Oh, and the interaction has been amazing. I'm really happy. :)

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  18. Answers to Catherine's questions:

    1. What makes me smile? My cat. Thoughtful gestures. Hugs. Sincere compliments. Family gatherings. Catherine & Hector. :)

    2. What makes me cheerful? Funny jokes. Friends with interests in common. My cat. Day trips to new locations. Something to look forward to. Good health.

    3. What gives me joy? Feeling needed. Helping others. Creative ventures. Beauty. Nature. Animals. Music. Art. Profound dreams.

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  19. What makes you feel satisfied"? This is a profound question, Amala "The foundational element of being satisfied is acceptance and the appreciation and adherence to balance. Blessings Hector

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  20. And completeness, wholeness.

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  21. Another great post, Okei! Not that I would expect anything less from you :-)))

    I think if we just ignore stuff and pretend that everything is fine, we are doing nothing but deluding ourselves. I also have a sense that as soon as we 'impose' our dreams and/or reality - we doom ourselves to failure. What choice is there but to accept the existence of things/situations that just plain do suck? Wishing it away doesn't work. Yet examining the cause is useful - in some instances there may be something that can be done to aid - but ultimately understanding the cause only serves to enable us to shift our perspective. To understand that life is life - in all its facets - even the ones we feel 'suck'.

    I would mimic all the previous answers to what makes me mad, sad, frustrated, etc. But in all honesty, what makes me feel any given way - positive or negative - is irrelevant. Feelings are fleeting, changeable, corruptible and deceiving. It's what we 'do', despite feeling a certain way, that makes us who we are. Too often emotions/feelings are nothing more than an excuse to act/re-act in a certain way. But I believe also emotions can also be a powerful fuel for driving us forward - and endless energy source if we can harness our emotions rather than be lead around by our noses with them. Of course, easier said than done :-))

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  22. Lin said:

    Interesting Post and replies, thanks Okie and all,

    What makes me mad, sad, frustrated...... nothing really.....though I do experience the emotions of mad, sad, frustrated. excited, happy etc., flowing through the body.. ( I am not my emotions but I do experience the sensation or movement of energy that are labelled emotions)........and the content of those emotions or what appears to trigger those emotions are nothing more than my thoughts, opinions or ideas and my attachment to those thoughts, ideas and opinions.

    How do I react to that energy of emotions rising, first and foremost by observing the thoughts (mindfulness) and the attachments to those thoughts. The ability to observe or be mindful of what thoughts are passing through mind and how the body is reacting is often enough to release the emotions, which allows for thought to become clear and awareness of constructive action may arise.

    What is bothering you that you don't want to talk about? Nothing



    What should the next question be?

    Without moving to past or future......what problem are you experiencing right this moment?

    None.....I have no problems this moment.....this has lead to a very interesting discovery that in this moment, I really rarely have a problem other than in mind. I have challenges, which I can either do something about or Not.

    Be Well

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  23. Thank you Lin!

    Yes, you hit on a flaw in my line of questioning. Indeed, the First Noble Truth says "there is dukkha", not that I experience it, and as I was even discussing on the "Interactive First Noble Truth" thread, it seems that knowledge of the truth of dukkha was the "final step of awakening", hence these truths, literally "Truths of the Noble Ones", are perhaps for those who have already realized the difficult truth of anatta or no-self, and so do not identify with anything that arises.

    How do I react to that energy of emotions rising, first and foremost by observing the thoughts (mindfulness) and the attachments to those thoughts. The ability to observe or be mindful of what thoughts are passing through mind and how the body is reacting is often enough to release the emotions, which allows for thought to become clear and awareness of constructive action may arise.

    Love this!

    Without moving to past or future......what problem are you experiencing right this moment?

    None.....I have no problems this moment.....this has lead to a very interesting discovery that in this moment, I really rarely have a problem other than in mind. I have challenges, which I can either do something about or Not.


    This is a beautiful insight. Thanks so much for sharing!!!

    Blessings! Be well you too, have a fantastic summer! okei

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  24. Kathy said in response to Erica: It's what we 'do', despite feeling a certain way, that makes us who we are. Too often emotions/feelings are nothing more than an excuse to act/re-act in a certain way. But I believe also emotions can also be a powerful fuel for driving us forward - and endless energy source if we can harness our emotions rather than be lead around by our noses with them.

    My silent applause to you for this comment. :D Blessings!

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  25. Erica said: I also have a sense that as soon as we 'impose' our dreams and/or reality - we doom ourselves to failure. What choice is there but to accept the existence of things/situations that just plain do suck? Wishing it away doesn't work. Yet examining the cause is useful - in some instances there may be something that can be done to aid - but ultimately understanding the cause only serves to enable us to shift our perspective.

    Thanks Erica! Well said... and would you say that the kind of ideas in "The Secret" which I read two years ago and have now completely forgotten are very much about changing perspective? Aligning with reality as opposed to "changing it".

    I agree the answers themselves are perhaps irrelevant, and as Lin has pointed out, the questions also, but for the fact that they might help us shift our awareness. Absolutely agree about your comment of emotional patterns just repeating themselves, so it's what we do about them and how we direct them, similar to what Kathy had been saying also. And Lin about not identifying with them.

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  26. Carrie said: Something to look forward to.

    Thanks Carol for sharing what gives rise to moments of happiness and the state of cheerful serenity. :^)

    The above made me think of Winnie the Pooh thinking about honey. The pleasure not only in the eating, but largely in the looking forward to eating, lol.

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  27. Hector said: Regarding Synchronicity, accepting "The Design" the wonderful outcome of life. I appreciate Carl Jung.

    Thanks Hector for sharing all the positive things to life and thanks to Catherine for trying to counterbalance this blog with some smilies.

    "The Design", would that be like the Greek concept of "nous"... sort of like abstract truth of nature?

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  28. Beautiful, your whole post Catherine.

    I'm sorry about your strawberries. :^( ...clever squirrel, ha! it wins your sympathy.

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  29. Ok, there's something I noticed about my line of questions, which I hadn't intended, but worked out inadvertently.

    What makes you mad? This is really a question of good vs. bad.
    As some of the answers illustrate, we feel this most when it effects us directly. It becomes personal.

    What makes you sad? This is really a question about change vs. inertia.
    Both change can make us sad, but also lack of change, or inertia, can also make us sad.

    What makes you frustrated? This is really a question about desires fulfilled vs. frustrated.

    Buddha said, "What is the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering?
    It is craving which renews being and is accompanied by relish and lust, relishing this and that:
    in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for not being.
    But whereon does this craving arise and flourish?
    Wherever there is what seems lovable and gratifying, thereon it arises and flourishes. "

    As with all the Noble Truths, this must be known, practiced (by abandoning the origin of suffering) and awakened to (that it has been abandoned).


    Paradoxically, even the fulfillment of desire can leave us frustrated, which is why Buddha links desire (tanha) with dukkha (suffering), but this is because the desire is finite. Our thirst is infinite, so the fulfillment of finite desires of for example fame, or pleasure or riches, cannot quench it, for they simply lead us on to desiring more.

    Strongly related to the three desires (to either experience things, become something, or not be something) is the idea of attachment... there are four forms of attachment: (i) sensual, (ii) opinions, (iii) habits, (iv) self. To be or not be are strongly linked with attachment to self, while our habits or liking/disliking, doing/not doing of body and mind are at the root of our experience. It's interesting to think about them... I would call them "addictions" to show them for what they are...

    Infinite desire on the other hand is another thing entirely, is it not? And I think it is this that we associate with purpose and fulfillment and which is referred to in the following quotes:

    Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained. (Blake)

    Do not give up on your desire. (Lacan)

    But now I wonder, is "good" an infinite desire? As many of the answers showed, desire fulfilled or frustrated is often linked with our idea of good/bad of the first question!

    Perfection and imperfection, good and bad are modes of thought, not intrinsic to the things themselves. ... In no case do we strive for, wish for, long for, or desire anything, because we deem it to be good, but on the other hand we deem a thing to be good, because we strive for it, wish for it, long for it, or desire it. ... Desire is the essence of man. (Spinoza)

    7. What thoughts do you have on Buddha's Second Noble Truth and the nature of desire?

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  30. Thanks Karol!

    I wonder what is the quality of the desire that animals not be cruelly treated which makes it of a different nature to the kind of desires that Buddha seeks for us to root out in the Second Noble Truth. I'd be grateful if you could share your insight because the common-sense answer is that we should direct our passions and our desires to "do good", but how do you relate that with your understanding of good/bad and desires being associated with the cycle of dependent origination which leads to suffering?

    If you didn't work tirelessly for animals, then not acting on your desire would cause you loss of peace of mind and suffering... so... are there "two" desires, maybe like the infinite/finite that I was suggesting in my comment... or how would you explain it? Many thanks... hoping you see this. :^)

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  31. Thanks Carol for your whole answer.

    I wonder on the subject of hypocrisy, if one sees a characteristic of oneself in another that we don't like, does that trigger us more, or does it trigger us less because we can relate to it? I think the latter, but it could be the former also if we it is something we are unaware of, or if it acts like a lesson to our future self, (e.g. when children are mad at the behaviour of adults, sometimes they carry that as a lesson with them into the future and react in the opposite way, sometimes they might find themselves doing the same when they grow up).

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  32. Kathy said What makes me smile: muscles in my face [many things make me smile--like when people "get it"]

    LOL! thanks for the laugh and the great contributions.

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  33. Oh, and to add to my comments about my questions, what you "don't want to talk about" is perhaps all about stuff where there are conflicting desires like an interference pattern, that we wish to resolve before "opening up about it"... stuff where we want to go it alone and see it through and know deep down that that's the only way.

    Does that resonate?

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  34. Catherine said: A fantastic Post here. Well done, every body wants to participate, and read each other's answers, and learn from it. It is REAL !

    Whatever "learning from it" is, by the way ! Smile.

    Ok;

    - What makes you mad ? Narrowness in thinking. Life is so much larger, broader, uplifting, and deeper than what is usually conceived.

    - What makes me angry ? Details ! Lack of self control in myself or others. I am a Perfectionist, I am afraid. And so exacting.


    Thank you Catherine!

    And what is your response to narrowness and lack of details? Are you kind to yourself despite being exacting? I think I'm a perfectionist also sometimes, and I find it works for me. How to distinguish those desires which take one away from the situation and lose peace of mind from those that help us be fully present in the situation? Similar to my question in response to Karol's answer...

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  35. Dave said: 4. What is your response to frustration? Hiring someone to do my taxes for me.

    Thanks Dave... outsourcing dukkha, eh!

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  36. Amala said: What makes me frustrated is that I can't control other people and events. If I could all stupidity would stop.

    LOL!

    My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music. (Vladimir Nabokov)

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  37. Thanks Ian & Thank you Nancy!!! (((Hugs)))

    Kathy said: The perspective we give to our life is important. [Great post, Okei!!] Blessings!

    Thanks Kathy! Brilliant answers. Blessings to you too!

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  38. Hector said: What makes me angry.: Somebody trying to pickup on my woman.......

    This reminds me of a thought that came to me when I was originally thinking about this blog...

    No-one can take anything away from you.

    I got it as I was waking up and it sums up the idea of clinging, and the antidote to clinging.

    Another thought...

    Do not lose yourself in the object, it's the subject that matters.

    And in witnessing the subject, subject and object disappear. You become the witness. And perhaps you can witness the desires arising and not let them "hook" you into the cycle of suffering that breaks peace of mind...

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  39. okei said: Thank you Catherine!

    And what is your response to narrowness and lack of details? Are you kind to yourself despite being exacting? I think I'm a perfectionist also sometimes, and I find it works for me. How to distinguish those desires which take one away from the situation and lose peace of mind from those that help us be fully present in the situation? Similar to my question in response to Karol's answer...


    Catherine said: No !

    I am not being kind to myself, I suffer anxiety when things are not in detail perfect, (for instance, when workers were redecorating my Flat one year ago, or, when I am typing and corresponding : it takes me ages, so much I check and recheck and correct myself).

    But I also sleep a lot in between. This helps me to relax. Smile.

    And when I act as a Producer, as Hector puts it, it is not so bad because although I am once more exacting and willful, I can see the Magic, (that one out of my control).
    Does not mean however that I give up on the exacting bit when it matters to publish it, and publish it well.

    The World is made of all kind.

    Guess I am of the more Pragmatic type. Smile.

    Take care, dear Jamintoo.

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  40. okei said: would you say that the kind of ideas in "The Secret" which I read two years ago and have now completely forgotten are very much about changing perspective? Aligning with reality as opposed to "changing it".

    Erica said: I see what you are saying here - but what I took away from "The Secret" is that it more describes the process of 'how' we manifest things. If we focus on what we fear - that is what we get rather than what we intended to create. I think an example was if we say we don't want cancer - all the universe hears is 'cancer' - so we have to project our desires in a positive way - such as I want to be healthy. It's only after a certain 'reality' is presented to us where we have the opportunity to shift our perspective and therefore 'shift' our reality and 'change it'.

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  41. Hi Catherine, you have learnt to be a pragmatic perfectionist.

    Erica, yes! I think I understand. :-) I had a disturbing dream about cancer a few weeks ago, so it's curious that you gave that example. I was worried in the dream that it was about my brother, but I don't want to worry anyone because of a silly dream and anyway I saw it as more of a spiritual warning to myself. It was directly after that dream in fact that I got the mindfulness thought which I posted in my last blog on BT.

    Edit: just including the link to that for reference...
    http://itsokei.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/two-stories-at-sedaka.html

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  42. I just realised how this ties in with the Second Noble Truth. Imperfection may be a fact of life, sometimes we may fall short or feel bad about something, either manners or mistakes or doing the right thing. And this truth tells us...

    Relax about imperfection! It is not our personal problem...unless of course we choose to make it so. Ultimately it is our choice. So become aware of what we choose...where does that choice come from? Is it from our essence? Is it grounded in the desire for inner nourishment and renewal? Or is it grounded in a desire for redemption as if we are not 'good enough', as if we must prove ourselves to be accepted and loved by others, ourselves or God.

    Is there a difference you can feel between these two desires? Where do you feel it? How do you feel it?

    I think they are both valuable, but it's the former that should be the master... Good comes first!!!!!!!

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  43. okei said: What should the next question be?

    Had said: Who, what, where and why

    you already have the what, who and why

    So not the next question I think should be--is "where will you go and what will you do with what you know? "

    What is making you-

    Mad--- Denial, Pretense, Lack of responsibility and accountability ( doubled it especially if they try to blame another for their issues)
    . blatant lies, extreme selfishness or greed, Not protecting the innocence--doing nothing and calling that good on your part, abuse, cover-ups, disloyalty-Unfaithfulness,

    Sad- Death, sickness, hunger

    Frustrated-lack of true values. People who make me mad, People who are always questioning but never coming to any accurate knowledge (children learn with many questions and answers-but not all adults) foolish, idle people who waste their life.

    What is my response-hmm-- varies. many of the same things you do. Work it out and try to do goods elsewhere. I do believe prayer helps.

    What is bothering you that you don't want to talk about?. Nothing usually, I usually face it head on. Thats my problem at times, others don't like confrontation. If I don't confront it (perhaps I feel it is useless, a waste of time, etc,) than I usually do leave.

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  44. Had said: where will you go and what will you do with what you know?

    Thank you Had! I need to remind myself of that endlessly...

    As for confrontation, I don't like it at all! I try to approach things abstractly instead of personally, but if there's anything that I must learn from the Second Noble Truth, it's that "unsatisfactoriness" must be observed where it arises, and rather than ignored or acted out on without noticing, that it be confronted with clarity but also with compassion, and "unhooked" from. This article by Pema Chodron looks interesting...

    http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1610&Itemid=247

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  45. Had said: Good link and I agree with it for the most part.Confrontation is inevitable There is therefore need to confront positively whenever the need arises if possible.. I think that points that out too.

    Learn to confront the wrong action but not the person is best.

    Than again confrontation can cause conflict and that is why many would prefer to avoid confrontations. even if for the better good. to face it.

    I think we need to confront things too--or they remain often. If I didn't do that in my animal work-people could get hurt. As they are not always wise. (That goes for me too). And sometimes I have to be firm.
    What if we didn't confront- in ourselves let alone others? Would the world be better, would we? W--my view no.

    Confrontations can be scary--that is true, and it might not make you popular but are often necessary when others do wrong or inappropriate things. There should be nothing frightening about confronting a person that you believe to be in the wrong. As long as you have a true foundation for that belief.

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  46. Hi Had, feeling the need to confront to point out error...I do that...often to the annoyance of people, but to point out something I don't like...not so much, I guess that means my emotions are quiet, but my mind is noisy. The middle way I guess is a suitable balance. It's very easy though to be 'hooked' into one or the other (to use the terminology of that article)... the noisy must learn to 'pause' to not always confront out of habit and the quiet parts of us to 'open up' and not avoid confrontation out of habit. But I definitely see a positive role to attachment if it involves habits and opinions that fuel a positive desire...see my earlier comment to 'karolmw' who also mentioned the animal rights issue. But what is a positive desire? I don't know... I guess it has an infinite quality to it, not rooted in finite ends. And because it is infinite, it cannot be fulfilled...as opposed to a cycle of wanting and getting and wanting more, it is a continuous state of being.

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  47. Lin said: I do not understand imperfection from the perspective of Buddhism......I understand impermanence.......that I get.
    So this is the only interpretation that I have been able to perceive...... all that is imperfect is impermanent.....that would leave only perfection in what is permanent.......which would not be any manifest thing or phenomena. Which would also provide a release to clinging..... possibly our clinging has to do with some idea of it's perfection, if we recognize that all, that is impermanent is imperfect, what do we have to cling to, why would we cling so tightly to something which is imperfect? If we are able to grasp that all that is impermanent is imperfect, It is easier to allow a natural progression of evolution.
    Since nothing is permanent in this manifest world, thoughts, idea’s or opinion’s…..there is nothing which is perfect, at least not in the manifest world.
    So what is there to strive for, …. Nothing really, it is more of a releasing of all that is imperfect to witness perfection………

    rather like Rumi says…… “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.”

    You asked of good and bad desires...or of "acceptability" of "good" desires......I'm not sure any desire is wise. Though I do understand exactly what you are pointing to. It is difficult to grasp that without this drive of desires, at least towards that which we would term "good" or "Correct" desires, that we would not fall into complacency. And it gets dicey in here to explain.......but there is a shift, a releasing of all desires, that leaves you in a place of loving compassion, that does not leave you complacent, and yet does not arouse the cycle of desires.

    "In between repression and acting out, however, there is something wise and profound and timeless." Pema chodron

    Pema Chodron ....writes

    But what the Buddhist teachings point out is that we could take a much bigger perspective, one that is beyond good and evil. Classifications of good and bad come from lack of maitri. We say that something is good if it makes us feel secure and it's bad if it makes us feel insecure. That way we get into hating people who make us feel insecure and hating all kinds of religions or nationalities that make us feel insecure. And we like those who give us ground under our feet.

    http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2287

    Whenever, I am faced with the thoughts of good and/or bad......a form of this common Zen story comes to mind.

    Everything in life holds both a blessing and a
    curse. We deny this when we label the events of our
    lives as either good or bad. The following old
    Zen story illustrates this lesson most
    effectively.

    A farmer had a horse but one day, the horse ran
    away and so the farmer and his son had to plow
    their fields themselves.
    Their neighbors said, "Oh,
    what bad luck that your horse ran away!"
    But the
    farmer replied, "Bad luck, good luck, who knows?"

    The next week, the horse returned to the farm,
    bringing a herd of wild horses with him.

    "What wonderful luck!" cried the neighbors,

    but the farmer responded, "Good luck, bad luck, who knows?"

    Then, the farmer's son was thrown as he tried to
    ride one of the wild horses, and he broke his
    leg.

    "Ah, such bad luck," sympathized the neighbors.

    Once again, the farmer responded, "Bad luck,
    good luck, who knows?"

    A short time later, the ruler of the country
    recruited all young men to join his army for battle.
    The son, with his broken leg, was left at home.

    "What good luck that your son was not forced into
    battle!" celebrated the neighbors.

    And the farmer
    remarked, "Good luck, bad luck, who knows?"

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  48. "In between repression and acting out, however, there is something wise and profound and timeless."
    Love this quote! Pema Chodron is brill!

    Your musing on impermanence sounded just like a Buddhist monk talking. How did you do that?

    I totally agree on eventually transcending good/bad, and that's a story I also like which demonstrates unpredictibility. Actually, now I think of it, it doesn't disprove the existence of good and bad, but it disproves that these can be defined in terms of "consequences", because consequences can never be known, as history keeps being written. But there are other better ways of thinking of good and bad, like "acting according to rules" (yuck!) and "doing what a good agent would do" (which sounds vague, but makes perfect sense and it's what the ethics of most religions, despite outward appearance of commandments and precepts, are ultimately based on)... transferring the problem from "actions" to "agents"... in other words I understand it as "develop wisdom and act in good faith according to your best understanding". (Example: Buddha said the blind man who killed insects doing walking meditation did not commit an unwholesome act, because he had no intention to cause harm.) If you're ever feeling in the mood, a browse around wiki about "ethics", "consequentialism", "deontology", or "virtue ethics" might be interesting, or maybe not...lol.

    One thing I wonder though... if "through training and practice" the subconscious learns all that is good and right... that subconscious learning would free up the mind to think of higher things (like the way we can walk unconsciously), so I wonder when all the wise ones speak of "unlearning" or as you quoted bringing down the barriers that set us apart from our true nature... is it really an unlearning, or a transference of true learning (as opposed to false programming) to our subconscious? Imagine a sportsman in the zone... he hasn't really unlearned, or forgotten how to play... he's just "not thinking" and "not needing to think" because he has trained his body to perform "the good" subconsciously. Is that your understanding of transcending good/bad also? A kind of trusting to the subconscious, and thus in some way perhaps a higher self...

    I will check out the link in time (need to pack today - I'm going on holiday... woopee! though that means I won't be around online for a while).

    Thanks again for everyone for your enlightening comments (in case I don't return before September). I will "meditate" on them. And wishing you a fantastic summer... and good wishes in all you do. May your journey be filled with lightness of spirit and lightness of heart, but not too much lightness nor heaviness for the mind... rather the Middle Way, haha! Blessings!

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  49. Lin said: Have a Peaceful, holiday............. and will be looking forward to your return.

    Be Well
    and enjoy the moments

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